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Post by ANTAREZ on Aug 3, 2007 11:14:55 GMT -5
nobody ia on at all anymore the scene is like a ghost idk maybe its just me but latly when im on here no body is sayin anything its sad
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Post by D Raw on Aug 3, 2007 14:06:16 GMT -5
Pointing out it is dead is not the best way to go about resurrecting it. I think it will actually make it more dead...
Why dont you try putting a controversial question or topic instead?
I'll put up a first example.
I was watching my copy of Breakvision: Diary of Japan, which follows and documents the two US crews who are going to Japan for freestylesession japan back in 2004 or 2005.
Kamel is a bboy, popper, mc, and probably also a writer. He says near the end that bboying is the most difficult element of Hip Hop. Writers need mad creativity and the technique to put up their tags, but its just hands and head. Dj's need mad creativity too and to know how to dig for new records, but again its just hands and head. Mc's need to have a huge vocabulary, rhyme list, and creativity but all they are using is their brain and throat.
According to Kamel, bboying without a doubt is the most difficult element, because it takes creativity, strength, mind, body, soul, and knowledge of the music. No other element comes close.
Any thoughts?
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Post by Padlock on Aug 3, 2007 14:50:40 GMT -5
It's kind of hard to say one thing is superior to another when it is all about self expression. That's like saying my photograph or oil canvas painting is better than yours because it's more detailed, you can't put a price or a grade on someone's own artistic expression
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Post by Schwan on Aug 3, 2007 16:15:54 GMT -5
It's kind of hard to say one thing is superior to another when it is all about self expression. That's like saying my photograph or oil canvas painting is better than yours because it's more detailed, you can't put a price or a grade on someone's own artistic expression To say one is more superior then the other isn't possible. What is possible is to say that it might be harder to become original at bboying then at writing or dj'ing. I think anyone can learn the basics of any of the elements - you can teach anyone to six-step in 5 mins, you can teach someone a basic graf alphabet in a day, you can teach anyone how to mix beats on the spot in _____? No clue there, but what I'm getting at is the basics fundamentals of these outlets can be learned by anyone. Breaking is just the hardest to get very good at. I think because of the number of ppl across the world breaking, it's getting to be harder to be an original. The body can only be pushed so far where as all the other arts don't really have the limitations within their known realms (someone might find a way to write in a different location or a dj might be like de Leon and do live music riffs and use them in his mixing on the spot). If you can't put a grade on personal expression, then why did I have to get grades on my paintings, photos, logos, designs, etc while at school? You can put a grade on anything and judge anything, but you have to understand the context in which it is being presented. If I took a photo of roadkill and turned it in for my project on say, "Social Differences through Clothing" then I would probably fail, and rightfully so. Just like if a bboy showed up at a ballet recital and pulled air tracks. It might be mad impressive, but it's not correct for the context. A good bboy will interact with the music, energy, location, people and turn it into a temporary work of art. The more they understand, the higher the grade people will give them in return because they will understand it - without explanation. In my mind, the key to a good artist is someone who can explain something unknown to people without explanation.
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Post by Lunchbox Jams on Aug 3, 2007 18:12:06 GMT -5
Wooo! Dopeness.
I agree with Schwan in that (in large) the value of art is dependant on how well the artist can explain what they are doing. There's no point in creating something if you can't share it's beauty with others. And what you've created won't seem as beautiful if you can't put it in a way that people will understand it's true value or see it through your eyes.
As far as bboying being the most difficult element, I completely disagreee. It may have been the most difficult for Kmel to excel at, but to generalize that statement to all people is ridiculous.
My reasoning is this: People excel at different things at different rates with different relative ease. While some have a natural talent for dance they may naturally be the worst artist (graf) in the world. So in order for them to become a great artist, they may have had an enormously difficult time.
Also, Kmel's statement wasn't in parrallels. If he were equally respected in all those elements across the board, then I would say his argument might carry some more weight. The fact is he is best known for his talents as a dancer. If he were known as one of the best at all the elements, and he made that statement, then I would see his statement being taken seriously by people of all elements. Instead I think there may be a little bit of bias in his argument towards bboying.
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Post by ANTAREZ on Aug 3, 2007 21:24:18 GMT -5
Damn Speech Class 101 hahaha
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Post by Schwan on Aug 3, 2007 22:15:20 GMT -5
Sorry, I'll go back to not speakin and making this place a ghost town again. What do you want, maaan?!?!
Talk. Don't talk. Talk. Don't talk. I'm not your puppet!!!
Ok, for real, this is the type of shit that needs to be discussed from time to time. It's always good to hear other peoples takes on issues that we hear every day, of every week, at every event. Does anyone wanna play devils advocate on this? I would, but I threw my back out humping your mom last night. Noodge.
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Post by ANTAREZ on Aug 4, 2007 13:04:59 GMT -5
Hahaha make the point clear insted of writing so much make it strong and clear cuz when people write soo much i tend to loose the point we were tryin to get across
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Post by cryzko on Aug 4, 2007 16:11:30 GMT -5
only reason for grades in school is so the school upholds there reputation for a certain "style" they protray...
i.e. in architecture these schools have their "style"...lawrence tech, detroit mercy, columbia, mit, risd
with out the system giving grades, then the point of pay for the degree/paper is pointless....
that "degree" is what gives you the advantage for getting hired/etc.....
i.e. i have been out of the architecture firms for 7 years...i've been on my own/etc....now on my resume' it shows that my office experience is only 2 years worth...but my hands on construction/desing/etc is around 10years..... the firms tend to look at a resume first and if the words are not there then the portfolio isnt shit to them....... i'm in the situation now.....
now, on a dance realm..... i know some cats that were in poppin/lockin and ventured into b-boyin since they said pop/lock was hard to them.....so in self expression, people are not really accustom to certain movements...... so things tend to feel weird to them......
sure we can fight about which dance is harder....but all in all....who really cares....... i've done them...b-boying/poppin/lockin/house....
i can give my experiences in them if needed.....
cryzko
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Post by Schwan on Aug 4, 2007 18:13:02 GMT -5
Cryzko,
If the specialized schools gave everyone A's, then would that make them more reputable? Everyone would have high gpas and they would be coming from a specialized school, making them valuable to those hiring them. This isn't the case at all. Because art can be judged - plain and simple. Everything we do can be. It's the amount of effort, creativity, originality, and use of the fundamental principles within the context we work that is judged and makes my work better then the next guys.
At those specialized schools along with any school, you should be learning not only the fundamentals, but beyond that, you learn how to think. This isn't just art, but every single degree out there. We learn to go beyond the fundamentals and explain them to people in a new way that makes them think. I tend to agree with you that a lot of people judge based on a degree. But it's our job to overcome this by showing them something new - by engaging them and showing them that what we can bring to the table isn't just a piece of paper. This holds true especially for bboys. The majority of the population doesn't see bboying as a true art form. I think most people would end up saying painting is more artistic then breaking. They might say breaking is art, but do you think they really understand it? Probably not.
I'd love to hear your experiences on all realms of dance. Which did you find most difficult to feel comfortable in and why? What makes you good at your art?
Sorry for making long posts, but we're talking about art which isn't something that can be or ever will be clearly defined. For this reason, I have to explain things like how I judge art. Anyone can look at a painting and see it's beauty in color, shape, form, etc etc. But you have a much more profound understanding of it when you understand the context in which it was created or why it was created in the first place.
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Post by Banana on Aug 4, 2007 22:18:51 GMT -5
I'm always down for a challenge....but for the record I'm not advocating the standpoint (I agree with Athai and Schwan).
Alright, devil's advocate: Breaking is the most difficult aspect of hip hop.
First and foremost is the emphasis on Gestalt ("whole") of the body and psyche (sorry for using a psych term, but it's the only word I could think of to define what I'm talkin about).
Breaking combines all aspects of the being; physical, mental, and the various metaphysical states of mind (conscious, unconscious, subconscious, etc). On the physical realm it demands the most in terms of body movement, coordination, and forethought. A breaker must be able to coordinate a plethora of muscles and joints and be able to interchange and interact all of them with the music that is being played. Further complicating our art is when state of mind and physical conditions are added to the situation; not everyone is in the right mindset, and not everyone gets the chance to break at 100%. Injuries and emotions also affect our performance, and we must adjust our coordinations accordingly or we fall out (too hyper, injured, not focused, etc). It's one thing to hit an airchair (a feat in itself), it's another to end a set with an airchair on beat (coordinating not only different movements, but coordinating them to a pre-set music pattern). The Funk arts are the only competing element in this aspect.
This shifts us into the mental realm. Like all aspects of hip hop, breakers must command at minimum a rudimentary knowledge of music. You cannot hit a beat if you don't know what a "beat" is, where to find one, or what instrument (or lack thereof) represents a "beat". Good breakers understand where a beat is at, great breakers understand where a musical phrase starts and ends. I'm probably not using the right term, but by this I mean the endpoint or climax of a series of notes. For our songs, it's usually a cymbal crash or something. I can't think of a good way of explaining this right now, maybe someone can help me out? In any case, the mental realm is also filled with ideas of forethought. Breakers must be GOOD at forethought. We have to know when to hit the beat, what move best follows our previous one, and think about moves we would like to try and invent in the future.
This brings us to states of mind. We've all done it: Daydreaming about breaking. Dreaming about doing airflares or whatever envisioning ourselves hitting a crazy new move
Consciously we: Plan our next move (usually) work out the specs of new moves as we invent them prepare physically and mentally for a battle
The other aspects do this too, but not to the same degree. Both Graf and Mcing operate on primarily the mental realm, popping does both physical and mental but is not as complicated as bboying on the physical. Therefore, bboying is the hardest element in Hip Hop.
Damn that was hard to do. Loopholes abundant, everyone feel free to start tearing it apart!!
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Post by Lunchbox Jams on Aug 5, 2007 1:20:50 GMT -5
Damn Sean....you could definately pursuade some people with that argument. There are a shit ton of loop holes though.
I would maintain and press on the fact that you are not skilled whatsoever at any of the other elements so your analysis is complete speculation, hahaha. Other than that, your breakdown doesn't take into consideration the degree of proficiency or skill required with each aspect of being (mental, physical, etc.).
As an example: In honesty, I think the level of understanding required to be a bboy and hit beats is minimal (atleast in terms of how complex music can be). All one has to do is hear a song enough times and they'll be able to work it. Understanding musical phrase, style, or even how to count on beat are completely unecessary. This can be seen as I'm willing to bet most bboys and hip hop heads will/can find the beat, crashes, syncopation and emphasis in musical phrasing without any traditional training or even a clue as to what words I just used.
The same argument can be used with the physical aspect of being. Bboys that can't do power live and die by style. Bboys that may lack creativity will pursue power moves that have the definitions and format laid out for them.
I like what Schwan and Cryzko are getting into. I believe any higher level of education institute is there to establish a foundation (for art, dance, history, math, whatever). It is then that you can set a standard of expectation. Schools are ranked by how well they facilitate and rise up to or beyond that standard of expectation. So for example, anyone graduating from law school will be expected to know A, B, and C. However, if you graduated from Havard Law (since they rank higher, are much more reputable than most schools, and have a better established program) you will be expected to know A through Z.
That's my argument as to why employees and companies look at degrees. It doesn't define how talented you are, but at the very least it guarantees that you have a minimal level of competency, skill, and the perseverance and commitment to finish school. Ofcourse someone talented and committed can reach these levels without going through school, but why would a company hire someone under those assumptions when you could just as easily find someone with the piece of paper to prove it?
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Post by cryzko on Aug 5, 2007 14:48:49 GMT -5
specialized "schools" have to have a foundation base on what they judge on in order to keep the "appearance/rep" of the "school" above standard.....
practically all colleges/universities have an accreditation review every 4-5 years ...... this is a showing of work/talent that the school shows to a review committee for a 1-2 week period in a closed display room....now in this "review" there is a list of criteria that the school must uphold in order to keep the ranking ...... i.e. in architecture some criterias are..design/function/presentation/structures/etc..... if these criterias are not met then the ranking on the school goes down and if the school looses the accreditation then your degree doesnt hold too much weight in that field......
now those that are in a creative field in college knows that most of the time if you just do the basics you can ease on through college ....but those that tend to be creative have that much more passion but yet the "standards" of the college might not give a shit..... so the college needs to regulate what comes out of the school in order to keep the rank
sure you can be creative but you need to stay original....i'm seen so many cats in design studio that would literally take ideas from others and use them directly in their designs...wtf..... but when presentations came along it stood out and that person couldnt really defend theirselves with that design idea that they took.....
know apply that to dance....... you can ease on by with the basics and even cope a few ideas from another.....but the one that is original will tend to leave a bigger impact.....
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Post by ANTAREZ on Aug 5, 2007 15:14:18 GMT -5
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Post by cryzko on Aug 5, 2007 15:25:38 GMT -5
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