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Post by Lunchbox Jams on Jun 13, 2007 2:44:24 GMT -5
my only problem about tryin to change a stereotype is people are gonna have to want to change there opinion and thats not easy. but i definatly agree with educating people on this subject. but what everybody has to remember is that hip hop started in tha hood, it came from dudes that used to be stick up kids, straight up grimmey dudes. every mc,bboy,graff writer,dj, who came from tha hood will tell u crazy ass storys about crazy shit happenin, for instants when i was a kid i lived on tha westside of detroit of joy rd. i saw someone get shot, it was crazy, but to everyone else it was tha norm. thats hip hop mentality, cause hip hop is were people were from, what they experianced. now that experiance did'nt stop me from goin to tha d after i moved to tha burbs. tha thing is hip hop is what it is, people are most likely gonna see tha negative over tha positive, thats why i tell people hip hop is'nt for everyone, cause it's not, people are either gonna take it or leave no matter how many positive aspects u can show them, cause when people make up there mind about something it's very hard to change it. I think these are excuses as to why you can't change opinions. People don't have to want to do anything. It doesn't matter what people want to do. If you prove beyond a doubt that you (not you specifically) are something other than what people originally thought, then you will change or begin to change their opinions and viewpoints. Being open to change is only helpful, not necessary. And I think that's true for anything, not just hip hop stereotyping. Otherwise issues such as segregation, women's rights, and minority equality would never have progressed the way they have. And the continual talk about maintaining real vs. fake bboying is probably why the general public have poor opinions. Talking about the history of original bboys is fine, but the continual emphasis and glorification that these people were hoodlums is not only emphasizing some of the more negative aspects of their lives, but it probably won't convince any suburban family to learn more about this culture. Aren't there more positive things to point out and focus on other than the negative mentality and hard-knock life image? From what I understand, getting out and away from the hardships is what everyone tries to do. So why would you want to keep it there? And to touch on what Schwan said: I most definately see it as an artform. Art evolves and we take the most positive aspects of any art, learn from it, and allow it to grow into something stronger that can teach others, infuse with other cultures, be shared with everyone, etc. Modern bboys are getting away from the grime, infusing other cultures and artforms, listening to different types of music. To know the history is a must, but to be apart of the evolution is being a real bboy. So if someone studies his art, learns from it, welcomes other artforms and people, and TEACHES TEACHES TEACHES, then that person represents the truest and most positive roots of a bboy. This topic is dope! Loving all the different opinions....
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Post by blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah on Jun 13, 2007 8:20:25 GMT -5
hey man don't get me wrong i'm all about tha positive aspect of tha culture but i was just tryin to portray my experiances with people, it's not just hip hop culture that i draw that from, cause my family is very racist, my grandpa thinks women belong in tha kitchen, they definatly don't like any otha race besides theres. now thats not my opinon, i've also tried to show them tha positive side to everything, i know there just a minut percent of tha people in this world, but it's gotta start somewhere. as far as bringin up those negative aspects of tha culture, theres never gonna be away around that stuff cause it's were tha culture came from, hell some people in tha culture are still livin that hard knock life. it's just like tha race issue, people were treated as slaves and less equal, women could'nt even vote, yes thats changed a great deal but people still remember those times, they still talk about them, some people still have that ol skool mentality, it's bullshit, but thats how it's been and it's gonna be, cause people are not just gonna change ther mind like that, everyone is still not equal in this country and it's 2007. if u look at it if hip hop would've have never crossed over from tha ghetto and tha hard knock life, to suburban america then none of us might never have discovered or knowen about hip hop let alone breakin. i want to beleive people will change but i have to be realistic.
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Post by blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah on Jun 13, 2007 8:30:17 GMT -5
also if we start to fuse hip hop culture with otha culture then it won't be hip hop anymore, thats already happing with tha mainstream shit u hear on tha radio and mtv, to me thats popular culture not hip hop. hip hop is hip hop, it's not house music or raves or clubs, or choreography, it's breakin,graffiti,djin,mcin. thats why i say it is what it is. u can't change that. cause tha minute u do then it takes tha purity away in my opinion. u might look at it different and thats cool, u obviously can do what u want to do.
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Post by cryzko on Jun 13, 2007 10:37:32 GMT -5
Bboy Stance... wasn't it how stickup kids would stand before they robbed someone, so when bboys did it, it was an intimidation thing? you are correct....... the stance was to hide the persons face if they planned on "stickin up" someone..... hat real low/etc....... This tells us three things: 1.) There are interested students 2.) There are no teachers 3.) There is no material available There is not a single good reason why 2 and 3 exist, and it's sad to know that U of M of all places is, in the new millenium, having problems finding enough material to teach hip hop 101 to interested students... there are teachers/cats in the game that will teach.....only issue is that most cats dont have that masters degree to deal with the politics of college teaching....... for instance, i tried to teach classes in architecture school for a design/model/furniture class....well, they wouldnt let me teach since i didnt have a masters degree....wtf.... but yet i have a dope portfolio that people are always astounded by...wtf.... pop master fabel teaches in nyc i think..... not sure on the college but he teaches classes on hip hop history and dance.... do you really think that colleges would take hip hop culture seriously?....sure it's in the arts program/yaddy yaddy but the overall stereotyped culture is already fucked up...... the moment u say hip hop to a person with no idea they assume that you are all blinged out and pack heat....... it's hard to educate those that dont want to learn....... those that seek the knowledge will find it..... cryzko
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Post by Scotty Pimppen RTC on Jun 13, 2007 12:28:39 GMT -5
Hm I think the best part of hiphop is that you are always a teacher and a student... I've done my research, i've read books, talked to Legs, Fable, King Up Rock, all sorts of old cats in nyc, and I'm still always hungry to learn more. The more that I know about hip hop, the more accuately I myself can pass down the torch to young kids who ask me about this and that. Who knows... i think hip hop 101 is a very reasonable thing, it would certainly get rid of this fake pop culture shaz.. and maybe after I get my masters.. I will do my part to pass this stuff down and try and get to teach that hiphop 101 class myself.
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Post by Lunchbox Jams on Jun 13, 2007 16:49:38 GMT -5
also if we start to fuse hip hop culture with otha culture then it won't be hip hop anymore, thats already happing with tha mainstream shit u hear on tha radio and mtv, to me thats popular culture not hip hop. hip hop is hip hop, it's not house music or raves or clubs, or choreography, it's breakin,graffiti,djin,mcin. thats why i say it is what it is. u can't change that. cause tha minute u do then it takes tha purity away in my opinion. u might look at it different and thats cool, u obviously can do what u want to do. What about when hip hop changed the first time? When it was drawn away from funk and disco beats into harder forms? Wouldn't the disco and funk that original breakbeats were created from be considered popular culture music? I don't think it's a strong argument to say hip hop can't change when it started and was initiated from change. The whole basis from what is was founded was to change. They changed from street violence to dance battles. They changed pop music to fit their needs and interest. One of the strongest assets in hip hop is the ability to take something from somewhere else and make it your own....it changed in the past so how can you deny change in the future? Now if you don't like the change, that's a different story. But to deny someone the right to be deffined a bboy because you don't like how they represent closes openminded-ness. And I completely agree that there isn't yet equality in this world, but that's why there's people like us fighting the good fight.... Hm I think the best part of hiphop is that you are always a teacher and a student... I've done my research, i've read books, talked to Legs, Fable, King Up Rock, all sorts of old cats in nyc, and I'm still always hungry to learn more. The more that I know about hip hop, the more accuately I myself can pass down the torch to young kids who ask me about this and that. Who knows... i think hip hop 101 is a very reasonable thing, it would certainly get rid of this fake pop culture shaz.. and maybe after I get my masters.. I will do my part to pass this stuff down and try and get to teach that hiphop 101 class myself. Yes! I think that if you're going to play at society's level, then make youself an undeniable force. If the requirements are to have a master's degree in order to teach a subject (and that's any subject across the board), then someone will eventually get a master's degree and teach if the subject and objectives are that important to them. My mentality is that if you really want your definition of hip hop to grow and prosper, then you have to do what's neccessary. This means looking past what you think is possible or impossible. If you need a master's then you need to get a master's. If you want people to listen to Roots, Common, and Lauryn Hill then you need to put yourself in a position where people will respect and value your opinions. The politics are a complete bitch, but given that it's their world that we're trying to affect, we have play by their rules until we're in a position to make the calls. ...yo I love how cryzko signs off on his posts, hahaha. Just messin with you. sincerely, I Love Lamp
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Post by Padlock on Jun 13, 2007 22:36:35 GMT -5
The bitch thing for me is explaining to people about locking and even though it really has nothing to do with hip hop...it really has everything to do with hip hop. It always tends to lead to a nice lengthy conversation because it leads into multiple sub-topics of the main overall intention of the chat
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Post by blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah on Jun 14, 2007 8:32:44 GMT -5
well hip hop did'nt change a first time, it was founded on tha basis of throwen partys, at these partys dj's such as africka bambaata, kool herc, grandmaster caz(he invented tha scratch), grand wizzard theodore etc... would spin funk, disco, etc... then people started rappin over those type of beats, then breakers came and started dancin to tha break of a song, graff artist wold be chillen, u know it was kinda like a jam in a way, then after years of there beein these partys (they used to call em block partys) thats when everything changed cause then these parytys got excepted and moved into clubs, then mc's started makin records and breakers got popular, so i would say it was'nt a change but it was an evoloution into what hip hop was and is. i don't think it changed except for tha mainstream bullshit. but what my point was, if u take for instants techno music. techno has it's own culture, it really has nothin to do with hip hop or opera etc.. u can like both genres but there still to seperate entitys, just like hip hop and disco, hip hop, funk, there seperate genres with seperate cultures. yes hip hop was founded by samplin those beats. but hip hop is still it's own culture. i hope what i wrote makes sense. man really good topic, i'm lovin everyones opinion.
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Post by RJ (NOT reazon) on Jun 14, 2007 10:37:23 GMT -5
The bitch thing for me is explaining to people about locking and even though it really has nothing to do with hip hop...it really has everything to do with hip hop. It always tends to lead to a nice lengthy conversation because it leads into multiple sub-topics of the main overall intention of the chat i have a similar problem but with poppin. when people say breakdancing, i have to teach them that it's really bboying or breakin. then i have to explain that poppin is also confused as breakdancing, bboying, and breakin. THEN i have to explain that there's really no poppin and lockin and that they're two different things. i've lost the interest of many females with this subject of conversation. BTW, i know there's a debate about watching the show sytycd but yesterday, i watched, and they made a statement that related to this topic: one of the judges said to d-trix (a bboy in the top 20) that his cockiness made her dislike him. then the other judge contradicted her and said that cockiness was essential for his background. d-trix then confirmed that cockiness was necessary to be a "breakdancer" (note: i may have paraphrased some of the statements). the thoughts of the judges don't mean anything to a bboy since they don't know anything about bboying but the general audience thinks they do AND d-trix confirmed they're statements.
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Post by D Raw on Jun 17, 2007 10:31:35 GMT -5
but what my point was, if u take for instants techno music. techno has it's own culture, it really has nothin to do with hip hop or opera etc.. u can like both genres but there still to seperate entitys, just like hip hop and disco, hip hop, funk, there seperate genres with seperate cultures. yes hip hop was founded by samplin those beats. but hip hop is still it's own culture. i hope what i wrote makes sense. man really good topic, i'm lovin everyones opinion. I see what you are getting at but I disagree with this statement. Hip Hop is a culture, but bboying is a subculture within it. Where this distiction is most noticeable and accepted is with the graffiti scene. Go to a Scribble Jam and you'll notice most of the graffiti writers are punks, goths, and rockers, and they mostly play music other than hip hop. Still they recognize their artform is part of hip hop. Each element of hip hop has evolved so much that you can no longer easily define what a bboy or writer, for instance, is. In my opinion, you can still be a genuine bboy or writer without being a close follower of the mc scene. If you are a bboy who does follow the mc scene, or who practices other elements in addition to bboying, props to you since its hard to excel at more than one thing at a time. Then you probably consider yourself a "hip hop head," but not everyone else will be multi-talented or share the same musical tastes, and wont claim to be a hip hop head. Funk, soul, rock, and disco beats all inspired the early generations of bboys. Wasn't it Ken Swift who said "It's Just Begun" by Jimmy Castor Bunch was THE bboy anthem? He isnt the only authority about bboying history, but what he said is significant since it implies that bboying is the movements we are inspired to create when we hear that dope break or beat go off the needle. The way that the bboy interprets the music is more important than the genre of the music. The last thing I need to say is please be more respectful and recognize who this audience is before you say a bold statement trying to educate or criticize them. Jason, I'm quite offended by some of your earlier posts which come off more as ranting to uneducated rich kids who know only what they learn from TV. Many of the bboys here have been to nearly every jam in Michigan, have at least a few hip hop tracks on their favorite practice cd, and tried to learn more about hip hop on their own after being introduced to bboying. In my opinion, they've done much more and know alot more about hip hop, than the individuals who say they are part of hip hop and know only about mainstream. If you want more people to share your opinion of hip hop, theres so much you can do. Promote your own shows with the artists you think deserve to be respected, or do a hip hop education class at a local high school.
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Post by Schwan on Jun 18, 2007 10:45:59 GMT -5
This is like saying, "What you call breaking isn't real breaking because you do air tracks and that shit isn't breaking, it's gymnastics". Look at all of the creativity people have brought to hip hop FROM other cultures. I had a prof in school tell me this before: "There was only one original idea in the history of the world. Everything else is a variation of that". This was in reference to people in the class who were afraid their projects were borrowing too much from famous historic pieces (graphic design work). But it applies here just as much.
Realize that you, nor I, nor does anyone have the right to say, "That shit isn't breaking". You might not like some of the things people do or say. Odds are they are wrong or at least doing something negative rather then positive for bboys. Chastizing will only prove your point so much (something I'm not trying to do with this post either). Teach others the past, show them your interpretation of the present and let them make the decision whether to agree or disagree with that. I feel this culture has so many different cultures within it and contributing to it that it's exciting and refreshing to see what will come out of it next, especially in the mid-west.
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Post by Scotty Pimppen RTC on Jun 18, 2007 13:20:24 GMT -5
This is like saying, "What you call breaking isn't real breaking because you do air tracks and that shit isn't breaking, it's gymnastics". Look at all of the creativity people have brought to hip hop FROM other cultures. I had a prof in school tell me this before: "There was only one original idea in the history of the world. Everything else is a variation of that". This was in reference to people in the class who were afraid their projects were borrowing too much from famous historic pieces (graphic design work). But it applies here just as much. Realize that you, nor I, nor does anyone have the right to say, "That shit isn't breaking". You might not like some of the things people do or say. Odds are they are wrong or at least doing something negative rather then positive for bboys. Chastizing will only prove your point so much (something I'm not trying to do with this post either). Teach others the past, show them your interpretation of the present and let them make the decision whether to agree or disagree with that. I feel this culture has so many different cultures within it and contributing to it that it's exciting and refreshing to see what will come out of it next, especially in the mid-west. If you are saying that if someone just does airflares then they are a bboy... then i feel like you are most forsure wrong. If you're not dancing... your just some dufus that learned to hop from one hand to another. As far as music goes... i can break to anything... i'll break to indie, hiphop, breaks, electro, ambiant, emo, punk, country, folk whatever... but i do believe that the music in battles should fall in a certain spectrum. I've been to scribble jam... and i don't ever recall most of the graff writers being punk rock... i think it's basically like anything else.. there are punk writers, there are hiphop head writers and i'm sure there are all sorts of writers. I don't think we should generalize things like that.
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Post by Lunchbox Jams on Jun 18, 2007 15:53:31 GMT -5
This is like saying, "What you call breaking isn't real breaking because you do air tracks and that shit isn't breaking, it's gymnastics". Look at all of the creativity people have brought to hip hop FROM other cultures. I had a prof in school tell me this before: "There was only one original idea in the history of the world. Everything else is a variation of that". This was in reference to people in the class who were afraid their projects were borrowing too much from famous historic pieces (graphic design work). But it applies here just as much. Realize that you, nor I, nor does anyone have the right to say, "That shit isn't breaking". You might not like some of the things people do or say. Odds are they are wrong or at least doing something negative rather then positive for bboys. Chastizing will only prove your point so much (something I'm not trying to do with this post either). Teach others the past, show them your interpretation of the present and let them make the decision whether to agree or disagree with that. I feel this culture has so many different cultures within it and contributing to it that it's exciting and refreshing to see what will come out of it next, especially in the mid-west. If you are saying that if someone just does airflares then they are a bboy... then i feel like you are most forsure wrong. If you're not dancing... your just some dufus that learned to hop from one hand to another. As far as music goes... i can break to anything... i'll break to indie, hiphop, breaks, electro, ambiant, emo, punk, country, folk whatever... but i do believe that the music in battles should fall in a certain spectrum. I've been to scribble jam... and i don't ever recall most of the graff writers being punk rock... i think it's basically like anything else.. there are punk writers, there are hiphop head writers and i'm sure there are all sorts of writers. I don't think we should generalize things like that. I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting what they're saying. Schwan is saying that airflares is a new move that is a part of the evolution of breaking. He's saying that something new can be incorporated and it will stil be definable as breakdance. Schwan didn't say "just" airtracks. You've misread. You have to relate it to what was orginally said by ThaFreshest, when he stated that incorporation of other art forms into hip hop no longer makes it definable as hip hop..... You're also misinterpreting Dara's post by getting caught up in the specific words. He's simply stating that not all graf artists are hip hop heads nor should they have to be. Understand the overall points first. Schwan is stating that incorporation of other influences is what allows any art form to grow. Dara is stating that just because you're not a hip hop head, doesn't mean you're not a bboy.
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Post by Scotty Pimppen RTC on Jun 18, 2007 16:39:17 GMT -5
Go to a Scribble Jam and you'll notice most of the graffiti writers are punks, goths, and rockers, and they mostly play music other than hip hop. Still they recognize their artform is part of hip hop. dara said "most of the graffiti writers are punks, goths and rockers" this just came off as sound ing absolute. also with shwans thing i trying to clear up if that's what he had in mind of not. I never said that Schwan said one thing or another. I think you may have miss interpreted my post.
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Post by Scotty Pimppen RTC on Jun 18, 2007 16:40:01 GMT -5
in both cases i was trying to clear things up because their original meanings were unclear to me. Thank you though.. your confirmation let's me know what they were saying.
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